Autore Topic: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44  (Letto 9958 volte)

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Offline aestorm

  • Post: 16
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #30 il: 11 Gen 2013, 22:35:33 »
Fabio
Looking at the map of Italy in your post .The Isola del Giglio is just south of Elba .The flight path on the afternoon /evening of 12th October 1944  from Foggia was to the west coast and then up the coast above the sea ,over the Isle of Elba
I wrote to 3 diving companies on Giglio [where the Costa concordia capsized] asking if a diver had seen a plane wreck in the sea  1 company replied .They had not seen a plane wreck but now have my name for any future finds .
The mayor of Rapallo also replied to my letter -no plane wrecks near his town that he knew .

Anne

Offline Marco S.

  • Post: 302
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #31 il: 12 Gen 2013, 14:50:51 »
Bisognerebbe controllare gli archivi dei comuni e delle parrocchie di tutta l'area.

Grazie Marco per la tua preziosa collaborazione anche con l'inglese.



Hello Fabio, you're welcome. I am pleased to help and I would kindly propose you, and to our friend Anne, to write a well detailed letter of request, to be then addressed to our Navy - the Italian Marina Militare, Anne.

We may send this letter for instance to the Istituto Idrografico of the Marina Militare, whose website is:

http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/comandienti/scientifici/idrografico/Pagine/home.aspx

As you may see, they have ships and campaigns for special underwater purposes, like exploration or research,

http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/comandienti/scientifici/idrografico/cosafacciamo/Pagine/LeNaviIdroOceanografiche.aspx

The main point of my idea is that you, Anne, would be free to send this letter to all the possibly interested actors, like oil companies or natural gas exploitation technicians, and so on. The letter should summarize all the things you know about this story and kindly ask to refer for whatever large airplane wreckage they may see, or they already met, on the bottom of the sea.
Furthermore you may address this call for assistance to all the possible Italian local newspapers, I mean, the ones published in towns near the Mar Ligure. This would reach at best the elder public, like aged fishermen or sailors, former miners, etc.

I may translate in Italian your letter, but in order to achieve its main task at best (to capture the attention of already busy readers, like Navy officiers and journalists) it should be concise, immediatly referring to all the details you know, and immediatly asking to refer whatever underwater suspect sighting of possible interest.
If you agree, I kindly suggest you to ask Fabio for further suggestion, before writing. Please, send me the draft English letter to my gmail address and I'll translate as soon as possible. Okay?

I really think this could be the only and best way to proceed, having to face such a wide and hard search in a deep sea.
I wish you all the best, Anne, hold tight! :-)

Marco  Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

Offline kanister

  • Post: 825
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #32 il: 12 Gen 2013, 15:55:31 »
Avrei un suggerimento da aggiungere: consultare anche gli Archivi di Stato presso le varie province.
Vi trovato diverse segnalazioni di cadaveri rinvenuti nei pressi delle coste liguri consultando i documenti della questura e dei carabinieri del periodo 1940-1945.
Ho rinvenuto ad esempio i nominativi di due aviatori di B17 caduti nel giugno 1944 davanti a Genova e spiaggiati nel savonese, ma anche quelli di alcuni genieri USA affondati con il loro LST nel gennaio 1943 davanti ad Anzio e pure decine di corpi di un mercantile italiano affondato da un sommergibile davanti all'isola d'Elba nel maggio 1943.
Per quel che riguarda Savona credo di aver completato l'esame, però qualcuno dovrebbe consultare quelli delle altre province.  Chissà che non si abbiano sorprese.
Non vediamo la storia per come è ma per come siamo.

Offline collers

  • Post: 11
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #33 il: 12 Gen 2013, 19:15:46 »
Hi Anne

I am so pleased this forum is providing a lot of excellent suggestions. I know there are many things to do but your father's aircraft has to be somewhere and any one of the suggestions may provide your answer.

It would be amazing and gratifying to see a post on here that simply said "Eureka!"

Very best wishes

Collers

Offline Marco S.

  • Post: 302
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #34 il: 12 Gen 2013, 20:41:39 »
Avrei un suggerimento da aggiungere: consultare anche gli Archivi di Stato presso le varie province.
Vi trovato diverse segnalazioni di cadaveri rinvenuti nei pressi delle coste liguri consultando i documenti della questura e dei carabinieri del periodo 1940-1945.
Ho rinvenuto ad esempio i nominativi di due aviatori di B17 caduti nel giugno 1944 davanti a Genova e spiaggiati nel savonese, ma anche quelli di alcuni genieri USA affondati con il loro LST nel gennaio 1943 davanti ad Anzio e pure decine di corpi di un mercantile italiano affondato da un sommergibile davanti all'isola d'Elba nel maggio 1943.
Per quel che riguarda Savona credo di aver completato l'esame, però qualcuno dovrebbe consultare quelli delle altre province.  Chissà che non si abbiano sorprese.

Kanister kindly suggests to send the letter to, or to visit the State Archives (Archivi di Stato in Italian) since he found several refers to corpses ashore on the Ligurian coasts, in the police headquarters and Carabinieri records from 1940-45.
For instance he found the names of two aviators from a B17, died in June 1944 in front of Genoa and lying ashore near Savona. He found other names of US sappers drowned when their LST sank in January, 1943 in front of Anzio, and tens of corpses from an Italian cargo sank by a submarine near the Elba island in May 1943.
Concerning Savona he believes to have completed the search but kindly suggests to check the other provinces for further record.
« Ultima modifica: 12 Gen 2013, 20:42:46 da Marco S. »
Marco  Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

Offline kanister

  • Post: 825
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #35 il: 12 Gen 2013, 20:49:40 »
Dato che sei così gentile da tradurre aggiungi che se gli altri archivi sono come quello di Savona è inutile scrivere: i documenti non sono catalogati e sono sparsi in decine di faldoni.
In circa due anni, con in media una visita a settimana sono riuscito a completare le segnalazioni delle varie polizie alla prefettura.

Ora sono passato ai faldoni che definiscono postbellica: pensavo di trovare documenti del 1945-46 ma in mezzo ci sono anche documenti del 1918 relativi a profughi: ma in effetti hanno ragione, è comunque una "postbellica.
Non vediamo la storia per come è ma per come siamo.

Offline Marco S.

  • Post: 302
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #36 il: 13 Gen 2013, 13:46:32 »

Kanister kindly added that it would be useless to search the Savona archives, since their documents are not catalogued and therefore scattered in many binders. He had to work for two years with a weekly visit to complete the warnings from the police to the prefecture.
Marco  Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

Offline aestorm

  • Post: 16
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #37 il: 13 Gen 2013, 21:22:04 »
Collers, Fabio & Marco

Many thanks for your best wishes and suggestion to send a letter to the Istituto Idrografico .I will send a letter to your email Marco, to translate, then presumably I can post it to them ?
But in 2001 I visited the coastguard office in Genoa/Genova who suggested that I write to the Istituto, which I did .No reply so I wrote again .Apologies from the director but he wrote that there were no aircraft wrecks in the Ligurian sea on their database ! I will try again !

I wrote to Genoa newspapers in 2002 and received a reply from a lady reporter but no response from anyone but that is worth another try.
Thank you again
Anne
 

Offline aestorm

  • Post: 16
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #38 il: 13 Gen 2013, 21:26:17 »
Kanister
Thank you as well
Anne

Offline kanister

  • Post: 825
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #39 il: 13 Gen 2013, 21:39:31 »
.Apologies from the director but he wrote that there were no aircraft wrecks in the Ligurian sea on their database !
 

Some time ago I read that in the Ligurian sea there are over 5000 target: ship, airplanes, old wessel (from Roman time till today), so I find very strange what the director wrote.

But you must know that They could not find the "Transilvania", an English liner torpedoed on WWI by a German submarine: till some private searcher found it near the Bergeggi island, where everyone know it was.


PS.: the Transilvania was a liner of 14000 tons and long 167 meters.
« Ultima modifica: 13 Gen 2013, 21:44:23 da kanister »
Non vediamo la storia per come è ma per come siamo.

Offline aestorm

  • Post: 16
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #40 il: 14 Gen 2013, 10:51:23 »
Kanister
I am told that it is difficult to see underwater if the silt has covered the wreck but the Institute should be able to cope with that ??
Last year, 2012, a German WW2 plane wreck was found by a private diving company led by a woman .Cristina Freghieri

Anne

Offline Marco S.

  • Post: 302
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #41 il: 14 Gen 2013, 11:20:16 »

Dear Anne, dear all,

Good morning. I have just translated and sent back to Anne the draft letter for whatever possible institution, newspaper or researcher, also explaining in my e-mail how to add the header. I then translated two captions for the attached photos.

Of course, Anne, I remain at your disposal for further information or translations from\to Italian and English, above all in case of replies.

In his previous post, Kanister suggested not to despair after the reply of the Director, since there are up to 5000 wreckages in the Ligurian Sea, from pre-Roman to recent ones. And they didn't discover the position of a huge British liner, the "Transilvania", torpedoed during WWI near the Bergeggi island.

I would kindly ask to all the users of this forum to suggest possible addressed, like journals or researchers or associations (sailors, fishermen and sealabs) for this letter.

Lo scrivo anche in italiano: proporrei agli altri utenti, gentilmente, di suggerire possibili recapiti ai quali inviare la lettera (pescatori, marinai, tecnici marittimi), come associazioni, enti o privati.

Marco
« Ultima modifica: 14 Gen 2013, 11:21:56 da Marco S. »
Marco  Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

Offline kanister

  • Post: 825
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #42 il: 14 Gen 2013, 12:39:45 »

Last year, 2012, a German WW2 plane wreck was found by a private diving company led by a woman .Cristina Freghieri


Yes, we know of the Gigant near La Maddalena, but it was at a deep of 30 meters and there were some witness.
Ligurian sea is very very deep ( from 1000 to 2000 meters, even near the coast) and there is no witness that can say where to search.
Non vediamo la storia per come è ma per come siamo.

Offline Marco S.

  • Post: 302
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #43 il: 14 Gen 2013, 16:22:10 »


I had the pleasure to meet Cristina and yes, this was a very fascinating discovery.

I know that the Occam principle would surely suggest the sea, but please consider that in summer 2009 I discovered the wreckage of a British Vickers Wellington bomber at 2800 meters on the Western Alps. The wreckage had been sacked soon after the crash but after that, it simply disappear from common memory. So, even if quite difficult with such a huge plane as a Liberator, don't forget the possibility to find it on the land. Maybe confused with the crash site of an other plane or simply still unknown to Italian and international researchers, as sometimes happened.
Marco  Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

Offline aestorm

  • Post: 16
Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
« Risposta #44 il: 14 Gen 2013, 20:01:05 »
I think WW2 planes are still being discovered in the earth/ground in Italy, Holland etc and the iceman OTZI was centuries old when he was found .
One would hope Italian mountain hikers would find plane wrecks ?

Anne