Archeologi dell'Aria Forum

HISTORICAL RESEARCH AND RECOVERY HUMANITARIAN - WELCOME ON BOARD - => ENGLISH SECTION => Topic aperto da: aestorm - 05 Gen 2013, 14:12:08

Titolo: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 05 Gen 2013, 14:12:08
Crew of Liberator KH158 were ---

Maj SS Urry SAAF 
F/O GE Hudspith RAF
F/O TR Millar RAAF [my father]
Lt GA Collard SAAF
2Lt PJ Lordan SAAF
WO LB Bloch SAAF
Sgt RC Fitzgerald RAF

A memorial is being held for Sgt. Fitzgerald in his home town in Kent UK in March this year

SAAF = South African
RAF = British
RAAF = Australian
 
Anne


Re: registration
Sent to: Fabio Raimondi on: Today at 14:06:03
 
QuoteReplyRemove


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I wish to say hello .

My Australian father's Liberator KH158 of 31 Squadron SAAF [South African airforce ]  based at Celone, Foggia 1944 disappeared while on a Italian partisan supply mission on 12th October 1944 .There were 8 crew .The supply area was ENE of Genoa /Genova, high in the Ligurian mountains.There were 8 crew .5 South African SAAF ,2 British RAF and 1 Australian RAAF [my father] The plane wreckage has never been found ?  It may be in a lake or the sea ?
I have been searching for 12 years .
My website:  http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/millartrm.htm  
We placed a plaque by an old partisan house in memory in May 2011  
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/commemoration.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/commemoration.htm)

Thank you
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: collers - 06 Gen 2013, 02:17:56
Hello Anne,

Nice to see you made it over onto this forum. I hope someone will have some useful knowledge for you eventually.

Good luck in your search.

Collers
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 06 Gen 2013, 14:06:13
I can't add nothing new about that Liberator, but I have just found a copy of a message sent from Major Mauri, a well know partisans chef that fighted in Piedmont, about the search that were carried at that time.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: lanco67 - 06 Gen 2013, 19:35:45
E' una vecchia questione, quella del KH158. dei 6 precipitati quella notte l'unico a non essere mai stato trovato. Fino a prova contraria finito nel tirreno a sud di Genova
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: lanco67 - 06 Gen 2013, 19:38:47
dimenticavo questo link. saluti a tutti e buon anno.. :hi:
http://www.aereiperduti.net/approfondimenti/soana.php (http://www.aereiperduti.net/approfondimenti/soana.php)
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Fabio - 06 Gen 2013, 21:17:44
What route followed from Foggia to Genoa? It is difficult to know?
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 06 Gen 2013, 22:05:49
I can't add nothing new about that Liberator, but I have just found a copy of a message sent from Major Mauri, a well know partisans chef that fighted in Piedmont, about the search that were carried at that time.

Thank you for the report .I need to try and translate it ?
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 06 Gen 2013, 22:07:27
E' una vecchia questione, quella del KH158. dei 6 precipitati quella notte l'unico a non essere mai stato trovato. Fino a prova contraria finito nel tirreno a sud di Genova

KH 158 was sent to DZ code Morris --on the map but it is not known if it reached there
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 06 Gen 2013, 22:10:48
What route followed from Foggia to Genoa? It is difficult to know?

Fabio .
From Celone to the west then up the coast over Elba .

Am I replying correctly -the right way ?
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: sabo - 06 Gen 2013, 22:17:01
Su una montagna in territorio ligure vicino alla mia zona dovrebbero trovarsi dei resti di un aereo americano... una notizia che ho avuto ma che devo ancora verificare. da quel poco che so era un velivolo addetto all'avio-rifornimento.
la rotta dovrebbe essere stata questa...
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 06 Gen 2013, 22:24:20
I can't add nothing new about that Liberator, but I have just found a copy of a message sent from Major Mauri, a well know partisans chef that fighted in Piedmont, about the search that were carried at that time.

Kanister
I think I understand the Major Mauri report .
6 aircraft failed to return to base .Wreckage of 5 were found in the Italian alps but the 6th- KH158 has not been found .Likely to be in the sea .My website ---
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/millartrm.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/millartrm.htm)

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 06 Gen 2013, 22:26:23
I can't add nothing new about that Liberator, but I have just found a copy of a message sent from Major Mauri, a well know partisans chef that fighted in Piedmont, about the search that were carried at that time.

Thank you for the report .I need to try and translate it ?
Anne

On October, 28 Major Mauri reply to C.L.N./Allied HQ that asked news of the six airplanes lost on the 12th and says that on his zone they never arrived.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 06 Gen 2013, 22:33:28
Kanister
Thank you and all the others for your responses .
The 5 Liberator crews who crashed were found at the time or in the spring of 1945 when the snows melted .I have seen 4 of the crash site areas and been to a commemoration in Bra in 2001 .

But my father's KH158 is still "lost " unfound

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Fabio - 07 Gen 2013, 00:17:00
What route followed from Foggia to Genoa? It is difficult to know?

Fabio .
From Celone to the west then up the coast over Elba .

Am I replying correctly -the right way ?
Anne

Yes Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Fabio - 07 Gen 2013, 00:19:22
Su una montagna in territorio ligure vicino alla mia zona dovrebbero trovarsi dei resti di un aereo americano... una notizia che ho avuto ma che devo ancora verificare. da quel poco che so era un velivolo addetto all'avio-rifornimento.
la rotta dovrebbe essere stata questa...

translate for Anne:
On a mountain in Liguria near my area should be the remains of an American plane ... is a story that I had but I still have to check. from what little I know it was an aircraft worker all'avio-supply.
the route should have been this ...
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 07 Gen 2013, 15:32:18

Hello dearest Anne,

I received your kind e-mail today and, after replying, I checked Archeologi dell'Aria for an eventual thread - I then find this one. I am sorry not to be able to offer further and better information, anyway I remain at your disposal for whatever need or translation from Italian.
I think this is a real mistery and I hope we will be able to solve it.

Very kind regards and take care,


Marco
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 07 Gen 2013, 15:34:04
Fabio
Perhaps ?  But aircraft wrecks have been found .I think there are some in lakes and the sea in Italy
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 07 Gen 2013, 16:56:48

I am sure there are still many undiscovered wreckages in our sea!, while concerning lakes, I still have some doubts. I already heard many legends, especially on mountains, about that.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: pipistrello - 07 Gen 2013, 20:49:28
don't forget the unknown B-24 into the Selva del Lamone.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 07 Gen 2013, 23:03:56
Pipistrello
Can you tell me about the unknown B24 ?
Thanks
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 07 Gen 2013, 23:11:34
Please read this (sorry but is in Italian):

http://www.archeologidellaria.org/index.php?topic=1023.0 (http://www.archeologidellaria.org/index.php?topic=1023.0)

It's perhaps a B24 that crashed on June, 1944.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: micky.38 - 08 Gen 2013, 09:39:54
Pipistrello
Can you tell me about the unknown B24 ?
Thanks
Anne

Also to me, thanks...
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Fabio - 08 Gen 2013, 10:45:08
Where is a MACR of Liberator KH158?
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 08 Gen 2013, 10:47:53
MACR are only for US airships.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Fabio - 08 Gen 2013, 10:50:54
Fabio
Perhaps ?  But aircraft wrecks have been found .I think there are some in lakes and the sea in Italy
Anne

Dear Anne,
the problem is that we do not know where it crashed.
Which lake? What sea? It crashed in the mountains? in a forest?
To do a search, we need accurate information.
Is it bad for me to write so ...
I do not want to tell you is that yes, yes this is it. I do not want to treat delusions or false promises.

Archeologi dell'Aria will try in every way to help you.

a hug

Fabio
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 08 Gen 2013, 12:55:40
Thank you all again !!
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 08 Gen 2013, 13:07:00
Dear All
I wonder about this plane found in June 1944 near Bolsena ?

I can translate on google .It's not always accurate but near -so OK .

I think there are a WW2 German plane & a USAAF WW2 plane in Lake Bolsena + a more modern helicopter .
When Lake Bolsena was being searched for KH158 the underwater camera snagged on a helicopter --The search was in April 2006

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/lakebolsena.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~stormrhb/millar/lakebolsena.htm)

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 08 Gen 2013, 14:00:48


I think there are .......... USAAF WW2 plane in Lake Bolsena ........


The plane in Lake Bolsena is a B17. Please see here  (always in Italian, sorry):

http://www.archeologidellaria.org/index.php?topic=608.0 (http://www.archeologidellaria.org/index.php?topic=608.0)

If the plane of your relative crashed on Ligurian sea it's very difficult to find it: very close to coast it reaches the deep of 1000 metres and also 2000 off the coast.
And also if the B24 is a big target it's is not a "Titanic".
Sorry.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 11 Gen 2013, 21:31:13


I can't believe there are no historical sources able to indicate at least the area of the crash!

Dear Anne, I wish you all the best for this search.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Fabio - 11 Gen 2013, 22:09:34
Bisognerebbe controllare gli archivi dei comuni e delle parrocchie di tutta l'area.

Grazie Marco per la tua preziosa collaborazione anche con l'inglese.

Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 11 Gen 2013, 22:35:33
Fabio
Looking at the map of Italy in your post .The Isola del Giglio is just south of Elba .The flight path on the afternoon /evening of 12th October 1944  from Foggia was to the west coast and then up the coast above the sea ,over the Isle of Elba
I wrote to 3 diving companies on Giglio [where the Costa concordia capsized] asking if a diver had seen a plane wreck in the sea  1 company replied .They had not seen a plane wreck but now have my name for any future finds .
The mayor of Rapallo also replied to my letter -no plane wrecks near his town that he knew .

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 12 Gen 2013, 14:50:51
Bisognerebbe controllare gli archivi dei comuni e delle parrocchie di tutta l'area.

Grazie Marco per la tua preziosa collaborazione anche con l'inglese.



Hello Fabio, you're welcome. I am pleased to help and I would kindly propose you, and to our friend Anne, to write a well detailed letter of request, to be then addressed to our Navy - the Italian Marina Militare, Anne.

We may send this letter for instance to the Istituto Idrografico of the Marina Militare, whose website is:

http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/comandienti/scientifici/idrografico/Pagine/home.aspx (http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/comandienti/scientifici/idrografico/Pagine/home.aspx)

As you may see, they have ships and campaigns for special underwater purposes, like exploration or research,

http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/comandienti/scientifici/idrografico/cosafacciamo/Pagine/LeNaviIdroOceanografiche.aspx (http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/comandienti/scientifici/idrografico/cosafacciamo/Pagine/LeNaviIdroOceanografiche.aspx)

The main point of my idea is that you, Anne, would be free to send this letter to all the possibly interested actors, like oil companies or natural gas exploitation technicians, and so on. The letter should summarize all the things you know about this story and kindly ask to refer for whatever large airplane wreckage they may see, or they already met, on the bottom of the sea.
Furthermore you may address this call for assistance to all the possible Italian local newspapers, I mean, the ones published in towns near the Mar Ligure. This would reach at best the elder public, like aged fishermen or sailors, former miners, etc.

I may translate in Italian your letter, but in order to achieve its main task at best (to capture the attention of already busy readers, like Navy officiers and journalists) it should be concise, immediatly referring to all the details you know, and immediatly asking to refer whatever underwater suspect sighting of possible interest.
If you agree, I kindly suggest you to ask Fabio for further suggestion, before writing. Please, send me the draft English letter to my gmail address and I'll translate as soon as possible. Okay?

I really think this could be the only and best way to proceed, having to face such a wide and hard search in a deep sea.
I wish you all the best, Anne, hold tight! :-)

Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 12 Gen 2013, 15:55:31
Avrei un suggerimento da aggiungere: consultare anche gli Archivi di Stato presso le varie province.
Vi trovato diverse segnalazioni di cadaveri rinvenuti nei pressi delle coste liguri consultando i documenti della questura e dei carabinieri del periodo 1940-1945.
Ho rinvenuto ad esempio i nominativi di due aviatori di B17 caduti nel giugno 1944 davanti a Genova e spiaggiati nel savonese, ma anche quelli di alcuni genieri USA affondati con il loro LST nel gennaio 1943 davanti ad Anzio e pure decine di corpi di un mercantile italiano affondato da un sommergibile davanti all'isola d'Elba nel maggio 1943.
Per quel che riguarda Savona credo di aver completato l'esame, per qualcuno dovrebbe consultare quelli delle altre province.  Chiss che non si abbiano sorprese.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: collers - 12 Gen 2013, 19:15:46
Hi Anne

I am so pleased this forum is providing a lot of excellent suggestions. I know there are many things to do but your father's aircraft has to be somewhere and any one of the suggestions may provide your answer.

It would be amazing and gratifying to see a post on here that simply said "Eureka!"

Very best wishes

Collers
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 12 Gen 2013, 20:41:39
Avrei un suggerimento da aggiungere: consultare anche gli Archivi di Stato presso le varie province.
Vi trovato diverse segnalazioni di cadaveri rinvenuti nei pressi delle coste liguri consultando i documenti della questura e dei carabinieri del periodo 1940-1945.
Ho rinvenuto ad esempio i nominativi di due aviatori di B17 caduti nel giugno 1944 davanti a Genova e spiaggiati nel savonese, ma anche quelli di alcuni genieri USA affondati con il loro LST nel gennaio 1943 davanti ad Anzio e pure decine di corpi di un mercantile italiano affondato da un sommergibile davanti all'isola d'Elba nel maggio 1943.
Per quel che riguarda Savona credo di aver completato l'esame, per qualcuno dovrebbe consultare quelli delle altre province.  Chiss che non si abbiano sorprese.

Kanister kindly suggests to send the letter to, or to visit the State Archives (Archivi di Stato in Italian) since he found several refers to corpses ashore on the Ligurian coasts, in the police headquarters and Carabinieri records from 1940-45.
For instance he found the names of two aviators from a B17, died in June 1944 in front of Genoa and lying ashore near Savona. He found other names of US sappers drowned when their LST sank in January, 1943 in front of Anzio, and tens of corpses from an Italian cargo sank by a submarine near the Elba island in May 1943.
Concerning Savona he believes to have completed the search but kindly suggests to check the other provinces for further record.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 12 Gen 2013, 20:49:40
Dato che sei cos gentile da tradurre aggiungi che se gli altri archivi sono come quello di Savona inutile scrivere: i documenti non sono catalogati e sono sparsi in decine di faldoni.
In circa due anni, con in media una visita a settimana sono riuscito a completare le segnalazioni delle varie polizie alla prefettura.

Ora sono passato ai faldoni che definiscono postbellica: pensavo di trovare documenti del 1945-46 ma in mezzo ci sono anche documenti del 1918 relativi a profughi: ma in effetti hanno ragione, comunque una "postbellica.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 13 Gen 2013, 13:46:32

Kanister kindly added that it would be useless to search the Savona archives, since their documents are not catalogued and therefore scattered in many binders. He had to work for two years with a weekly visit to complete the warnings from the police to the prefecture.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 13 Gen 2013, 21:22:04
Collers, Fabio & Marco

Many thanks for your best wishes and suggestion to send a letter to the Istituto Idrografico .I will send a letter to your email Marco, to translate, then presumably I can post it to them ?
But in 2001 I visited the coastguard office in Genoa/Genova who suggested that I write to the Istituto, which I did .No reply so I wrote again .Apologies from the director but he wrote that there were no aircraft wrecks in the Ligurian sea on their database ! I will try again !

I wrote to Genoa newspapers in 2002 and received a reply from a lady reporter but no response from anyone but that is worth another try.
Thank you again
Anne
 
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 13 Gen 2013, 21:26:17
Kanister
Thank you as well
Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 13 Gen 2013, 21:39:31
.Apologies from the director but he wrote that there were no aircraft wrecks in the Ligurian sea on their database !
 

Some time ago I read that in the Ligurian sea there are over 5000 target: ship, airplanes, old wessel (from Roman time till today), so I find very strange what the director wrote.

But you must know that They could not find the "Transilvania", an English liner torpedoed on WWI by a German submarine: till some private searcher found it near the Bergeggi island, where everyone know it was.


PS.: the Transilvania was a liner of 14000 tons and long 167 meters.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 14 Gen 2013, 10:51:23
Kanister
I am told that it is difficult to see underwater if the silt has covered the wreck but the Institute should be able to cope with that ??
Last year, 2012, a German WW2 plane wreck was found by a private diving company led by a woman .Cristina Freghieri

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 14 Gen 2013, 11:20:16

Dear Anne, dear all,

Good morning. I have just translated and sent back to Anne the draft letter for whatever possible institution, newspaper or researcher, also explaining in my e-mail how to add the header. I then translated two captions for the attached photos.

Of course, Anne, I remain at your disposal for further information or translations from\to Italian and English, above all in case of replies.

In his previous post, Kanister suggested not to despair after the reply of the Director, since there are up to 5000 wreckages in the Ligurian Sea, from pre-Roman to recent ones. And they didn't discover the position of a huge British liner, the "Transilvania", torpedoed during WWI near the Bergeggi island.

I would kindly ask to all the users of this forum to suggest possible addressed, like journals or researchers or associations (sailors, fishermen and sealabs) for this letter.

Lo scrivo anche in italiano: proporrei agli altri utenti, gentilmente, di suggerire possibili recapiti ai quali inviare la lettera (pescatori, marinai, tecnici marittimi), come associazioni, enti o privati.

Marco
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: kanister - 14 Gen 2013, 12:39:45

Last year, 2012, a German WW2 plane wreck was found by a private diving company led by a woman .Cristina Freghieri


Yes, we know of the Gigant near La Maddalena, but it was at a deep of 30 meters and there were some witness.
Ligurian sea is very very deep ( from 1000 to 2000 meters, even near the coast) and there is no witness that can say where to search.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 14 Gen 2013, 16:22:10


I had the pleasure to meet Cristina and yes, this was a very fascinating discovery.

I know that the Occam principle would surely suggest the sea, but please consider that in summer 2009 I discovered the wreckage of a British Vickers Wellington bomber at 2800 meters on the Western Alps. The wreckage had been sacked soon after the crash but after that, it simply disappear from common memory. So, even if quite difficult with such a huge plane as a Liberator, don't forget the possibility to find it on the land. Maybe confused with the crash site of an other plane or simply still unknown to Italian and international researchers, as sometimes happened.
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 14 Gen 2013, 20:01:05
I think WW2 planes are still being discovered in the earth/ground in Italy, Holland etc and the iceman OTZI was centuries old when he was found .
One would hope Italian mountain hikers would find plane wrecks ?

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 15 Gen 2013, 08:20:48
Hello Anne,

You right about Oetzi, but it was just a body lying over a glacier in wide retreat... Not a Liberator bomber!

I mean, in effect I discovered this Wellington, the LN466, while its wreckage was still unknown to the worldwide researcher community. Maybe other elder shepherds and hunters knew that, up there, there were strange remains, but they all passed away in last decades. Therefore we may say I found a still-undiscovered wreckage in the hearth of European mainland, so of course as I wrote yesterday we can't exclude to find this huge Liberator, too.

The problem is, such absolutely new findings are very rare. Maybe you don't know the exact crash site, but at least you gather some legends or voices about "something" fallen somewhere; if you enter the section of this forum aimed to indicate new possible crash sites,

http://www.archeologidellaria.org/index.php?board=25.0 (http://www.archeologidellaria.org/index.php?board=25.0)

you will realize how many "voices" and old data are available to start new researches.
In this case, unfortunately, there are still no voices, memories or paragraphs stating that a large and unknown bomber crashed on that hill, on these mountains. So, according to me, there are just few possibilities:

1. The plane lies underwater. Therefore the only chance is to spread the letter I translated for you everywhere.
2. The plane is onshore, but not where you and all the other helpers thought. In my book I discovered how much a plane can be diverted by bad weather.
3. The plane is onshore and some shepherds or farmers knew that, but for whatever reasons the memories of their sightings remained unknown.
4. The plane is onshore and its wreckage was simply confused with an other one.

Do you tried to create a GPS map of its official route? It would be important to spread it.

Kind regards,


Marco
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: aestorm - 15 Gen 2013, 09:48:51
Marco
I've written to priests in some villages near the drop zone and mayors [sindaco ?] in Italian, including the mayor in Rapallo .Only the Rapallo man replied

Anne
Titolo: Re: Lost 31 SAAF Liberator KH158 and 8 crew -SAAF ,RAF,RAAF 12/10/44
Inserito da: Marco S. - 15 Gen 2013, 10:20:32


Thanks Anne, continue in this way... :-)