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HISTORICAL RESEARCH AND RECOVERY HUMANITARIAN - WELCOME ON BOARD - => ENGLISH SECTION => Topic aperto da: raus - 26 Dic 2014, 23:16:08

Titolo: Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: raus - 26 Dic 2014, 23:16:08
oi!

Does anyone know from wich plane is this seat, because seats from italian planes looks very similar??
I found this seat near Rijeka ( Fiume) few years ago. Man who gave me that seat, said that his father took  seat from crash site???

thanks
Raus

Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Fabio - 27 Dic 2014, 00:11:00
is very similar to the seat of the Macchi C.205
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: raus - 01 Gen 2015, 23:42:43
oi!

Thanks on reply.
Yes it looks very similar but not same.
I found two similar seat on internet from Mc.205 and G.50. They both are cut on the left side and this one is not ??

http://axis.classicwings.com/Italy/images/MC205%20seat%20-%20Dal%20Molin.JPG


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=192599

We hoped that this seat belong maybe to Mc.205 from Remo Lugari who crashed near Rijeka on 6 April 1944.

Also we get photo of airplane piece found recently by hunters in wood north from Rijeka. We tried to find that piece but snow stopped us, probably till Spring. On piece is very good visible green and brown paint. Maybe that can be upper part of Mc.205 wing??






Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: franzisket - 02 Gen 2015, 12:52:00
Hi Raus.....yes it could be from the wing of the 205.........this summer I've done a research on Brac to find the wrecks of two italian 205 crashed in july 1944....I've found some witness and maybe the crash sites....but the wittness are all old man and they speak only croatian....so the communications were very hard....................if you are intersted about these crash sites i can help you...............but please stay in touch with us  about this 205 from Rijeka.....
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: n.virgilio - 03 Gen 2015, 15:22:16
Dal " Nomenclatore per Velivolo da Caccia MACCHI C.202"  - Roma II Edizione 1942

Sedile corazzato, senza cuscino - Peso Kg.34,200




Il sedile  di Raus non potrebbe essere di un Macchi C.202 ?

N.Virgilio
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: franzisket - 04 Gen 2015, 00:15:22
......il 202 ed il 205 avevano lo stesso sedile...... entrambi i tipi di aerei sono andati persi durante il 1944 lungo le coste slave o nell'entroterra ...il dubbio rimane se non si conosce esattamente da quale crash proviene il sedile
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Freddy - 05 Gen 2015, 11:45:11
Hi Rado, happy to meet you again after so long a time.
Well, what you say about that particular dent clearly visible in the photos of both site is perfectly right but I think there is a problem. Those two seats belong to a MC 200 or may be to a MC 202, and there was an error in identification in both sites. Your seat, instead is the one of a MC 205. In fact MC 200 and 202 had the same armored seat, but that of the MC 205 was slightly different not having that particular dent. I put some pictures in attachment, one is of the seat of Vittorio Satta's aircraft (a MC.205) and the other two are of a MC.200. I have no picture of a MC 202 seat but the image posted by N.Virgilio shows very well the dent on the left side.
You don't say from where the piece does come and so I tried to find if there was a MC 205 crashed near Fiume listed in Yucrashes and I was able to find only two but both shot down in other places, very distant from your area, one at Trnovica and the other near Hutovo. In Yucrashes, instead, I couldn't find another MC.205 that is (or maybe there was some years ago) at sea at a very short distance from the mole of the town of Unije, in the island with the same name. A friend of mine, a diver, told me that the wreckage was in good conditions about twenty years ago and at a not excessive depth so that many divers used to go to the plane and take away parts as a souvenir. He said also that the rudder was displayed a bar just in front of the seaside.
May be your seat comes from that wreckage. 

To my opinion, that piece of aluminum sheet shown in picture 0493 cannot be part of an Italian plane but the camouflage seems to be the same of a British aircraft, may be a Spitfire or a Kittyhawk or even a bomber like a Boston, Marauder etc.
My best wishes of an happy new year to you and your family.

Freddy
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Freddy - 05 Gen 2015, 12:00:12
Sorry, I noticed now, examining better the photo of Satta's MC-205 that the dent is also on this seat. In a first moment it seemed to me only a bending. Now we are at the same point as before. To tell the true I searched even for the seats of other italian aircraft such as CR-42, CR-32, G-50 etc. but their seats were quite different.
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: raus - 27 Gen 2016, 22:56:49
oi!

I'm back :-))

Recently I clean a little bit more of that seat and I found something interesting.
 On left side where should be "dent" , here is a lot of small points.
 It looks like that seat is prepared for cutting of that part, but that is never done, and someone maybe in factory put that seat in plane,
or maybe is that some prototype seat.... ?????
I really don't know, but it's something new....
(http://s20.postimg.org/6pd3ge5i1/DSCN6405_35.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6pd3ge5i1/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/qldo9obx5/DSCN6412_35.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qldo9obx5/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/gcl73unvd/DSCN6415_35.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gcl73unvd/)


That part that we recently found in wood isn't part of Mc.205 as we tought. It's part of tail from B-17 42-31749 ( 2nd BG, 18.3.1944). This B-17 was hit with rocket and tail was shot off......
(http://s20.postimg.org/9oolh94d5/WP_20150927_18_13_31_Pro.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9oolh94d5/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/txbz2z3o9/WP_20150927_18_12_37_Pro.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/txbz2z3o9/)

ciao a tutti
Radovan
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Freddy - 28 Gen 2016, 11:37:13
Just for my curiosity. Where have you found that part of tail?
According Josip Klobucar, of Kupjak, the crash point should be near Gerovo in Gorski Kotar.

Are you sure that that piece of tail belonged really to the Willard Butler's B-17?

As crashed in the Gorski Kotar area I have:

02/04/1944 - B-17F–40-DL s/n 42-3244 - "Widow maker" - 414th BG/97th BG - Robert Oleson's crew. Source Z.Bocek says Ostarije but Josip Klobucar has this crash in Gorski Kotar.

02/04/1944 - B-17G-35-BO s/n 42-32062 - non name - 416th BS/99th BG - Joseph Moffitt's crew; 3 RTD; 7 POW Source: Z.Bocek says Ogulin but Josip Klobucar has this crash in Gorski Kotar.

24/02/1944 - B-17F-65-BO s/n 42-29638 - "My Aching Back" - 49th BS/2nd BG - Frakh H. Glass' crew    3 KIA 7POW - Source Joseph Klobucar says Gorski Kotar.

That said, I must confess, however, that I'm not too convinced that this scrap is part of the tail of a B-17. The de-icer shape is quite different and the dimensions of the tail seem to be too small. May be a Baltimore.
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: franzisket - 29 Gen 2016, 14:36:34
...mi sembra che quella sia solo una parte della deriva...e mi pare sia proprio di un B17
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Freddy - 29 Gen 2016, 17:10:52
Ho provato due opzioni di posizionamento ma entrambe hanno qualche elemento che non coincide.
L'opzione 1, nella posizione da te indicata, presenta un diverso raggio di curvatura del bordo d'attacco e il de-icer, o antighiaccio che di si voglia, termina molto prima che sul B-17.
L'opzione 2 ipotizza che sia la parte iniziale del direzionale al punto in cui si stacca dalla fusoliera. Il bordo anteriore del de-icer ha un angolo diverso e pure il raggio di curvatura del bordo d'attacco è diverso.
A parte questo, le dimensioni, almeno in confronto al furgone, sono troppo ridotte. A questo punto non escluderei l'ipotesi di un aereo plurimotore di epoca post bellica. Non so quali aerei ebbe in forze l'Aeronautica Militare Jugoslava nell' immediato dopoguerra per cui non saprei formulare un'ipotesi al riguardo.
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: raus - 31 Gen 2016, 17:03:30
oi!

Sorry, tail part is in wrong direction, it should be like it is in "posizione 2".
I found one number 15 - 7500 20, normal number system for B-17.
Freddy, You have map with crashes in area. I'm sure that this tail belong to 42-31749. In same area where we found part of tail, in time of WW2 Partisans and than after war, wood workers have found a lot of part of tail  and one body.....

Map:
(http://s20.postimg.org/63eiwyr89/42_31749_tail_and_Remo_Luagri_50.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/63eiwyr89/)

Parts from 31749 crash site;
(http://s20.postimg.org/md4ozv1w9/Picture_086.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/md4ozv1w9/)

About Klobucar: He research crashed planes in area of Gorski Kotar. Probably he gave You list with all planes that crashed in G.Kotar and in area near G.Kotar....

B-17  42-3244 crashed few km north of Ostarije ( near Ogulin).
Because new highway come over crash site, we found just few small pieces, but one man many years ago found a lot of parts and dog-tags.
(http://s20.postimg.org/syctlvsd5/SAM_2116_30.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/syctlvsd5/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/cef4zn32x/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/cef4zn32x/)

B-17  42-32062 crashed near Josipdol ( 10 km east of Ogulin)
(http://s20.postimg.org/qjky1gc49/Picture_004_35.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qjky1gc49/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/u1wxxud09/Picture_177.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/u1wxxud09/)

B-17 42-29638 crashed in Sea between Krk and Cres. In 1973 fuselage and wings are pulled out, and sold like scrap metal....
(http://s20.postimg.org/y5xwqc8yh/001_50.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/y5xwqc8yh/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/frndmcwnt/002_50.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/frndmcwnt/)

Radovan

Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: mazwork - 31 Gen 2016, 17:37:48
Radovan, you are right. "15" is a prefix from a Boeing B-17 part number. I'll check it in a Boeing manual as soon as possible...
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Fabio - 31 Gen 2016, 18:56:12
it is better to open the post about the B-17, which spoke of the Macchi C-205.


I've found this:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-6480.html

It's very interesting!
It would be a great discovery!

Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Freddy - 06 Feb 2016, 11:37:00

Sorry, tail part is in wrong direction, it should be like it is in "posizione 2".
I found one number 15 - 7500 20, normal number system for B-17.

Freddy, You have map with crashes in area. I'm sure that this tail belong to 42-31749. In same area where we found part of tail, in time of WW2 Partisans and than after war, wood workers have found a lot of part of tail  and one body.....

About Klobucar: He research crashed planes in area of Gorski Kotar. Probably he gave You list with all planes that crashed in G.Kotar and in area near G.Kotar....



Hi Rado, thank you very much for your precious information. Unfortunately, I have no particular map regarding crash places in Croatia and Slovenia, instead I have a Yucrashes excel file version that I corrected and updated with regard to some particular cases. I try to keep it updated whenever I happen to find new information about the Slovenian and Croatian crashes. This, because my research area adjoins yours and I'd like to have a general overview, as complete as possible, of the situation.

You're right about Josip Klobucar. He gave me a lot of information about his researches in past. He contacted me a few years ago because he was looking for news on a B-17 that he believed been shot down in Croatia but, instead, had crashed in the Udine area. Unfortunately the MACR was not available on Fold3and so I sent him a scanned copy of the document that I had in paper format.

With respect to that part of tail, my doubts were due to the different angle of the initial edge of the deice boot. Anyway I looked at a lot of pictures of B-17 tails and noticed that the angle is not the same on all B-17's, with no apparent relation to the type of model or manufacturer.
I couldn't even find references to the existence of two or more different types of deicer.
At this point we can be sure it's really a piece of B-17 and that is, almost certainly, that one I've shown in position B.

The attached photo, shows the tail of a B-17 F (The famous B-17F-5-BO - S/N 41-24406 - "All American III" of the 97th Bg, 414th Bs, rammed by a Bf-109 in Tunisia.) and the deice boot looks exactly like yours.

Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: Freddy - 06 Feb 2016, 19:03:42
There is another thing that doesn't seem to be correct. I took a look at your map in which also appears the crash point of Remo Lugari's Macchi 205. As is clear from the documents of the A.N.R., Lt.. Remo Lugari died in the crash of his fighter, in Velika Bukovica SW of Ilirska Bistrica, where his body had been recovered.
Anyway there is another Macchi 205 shot down on the same day and of which we don't know the crash point, it's the plane of Mar.llo Vittorio Pirchio who bailed out safely and had been retrieved by German forces and repatriated.
I believe that the crash point you have found is that of Pirchio's aircraft.

This is what I have about italian fighters shot down on 06/04/1944.

06/04/1944 - Mc.205 - s/n unknown - II Squadriglia - 1° Gruppo C.T. - S.Ten. Remo Lugari - KIA - Velika Bukovica SW of Ilirska Bistrica - SLO - Interception in Karlovac area. Return fire from B-24s or s/d by P-47s of the escort. Pilot KIA. A/c crashed at Velika Bukovica about 3 Km south-west of  Ilirska Bistrica

06/04/1944 - Mc.205 - s/n unknown - I Squadriglia - 1° Gruppo C.T.  - M.llo Luigi Morosi - KIA - Viškovo W of  Rijeka-Fiume - HR Interception in Karlovac area. Return fire from B-24s or s/d  by P-47s of the escort. Crash landed near Viškovo. Pilot badly wouded and killed by a partisan, with a "coup de grace", to shorten his sufferings. Buried at Kozala.

06/04/1944 - Mc.205 - s/n unknown - I Squadriglia - 1° Gruppo C.T. - M.llo Vittorio Pirchio - RTD - Crash point unknown. - Interception in Karlovac area. Return fire from B-24s or s.d. by P-47 of the escort. Pilot bailed out safely and returned with the help of German soldiers.
Titolo: Re:Seat from Italian fighter
Inserito da: raus - 07 Feb 2016, 13:34:23
oi!

1. Yes Freddy, You have right about Lugari. Because  we have just seat, and we have not yet found crash site, we thought that is maybe Lugari. In meantime we get info ( from You or Roberto Bassi?) that Lugari crash near Ilirska Bistrica. We found where is crash site, but not research yet. We heard story that pilot in that crash (position from Map-Lugari) died, then is not Pirichio... also I spoke to man from Karlovac who remember big air battle in Spring 1944, where one Italian pilot crashed with german(?) plane, was wounded and put in Karlovac hospital. I have somewhere record from some italian researcher that Pirichio was wounded after crash and send to Hospital in Karlovac  ..To many questions ?????....

2. Here is photo with good position of tail. I put some point to compare where that part was.... Also, on other photo is part of
 Bf-109G-6 from JG-53 ( with still visible "Pik-As" sign) from same battle. Two planes look again "eye to eye" after almost 72 years.  :biggrin:
(http://s20.postimg.org/fy2yihe1l/DSCN9851_Rep_B_17_25.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/fy2yihe1l/)
(http://s20.postimg.org/laweacrbt/DSCN9846_35.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/laweacrbt/)

I will send You new list with crashed planes in Istra-Rijeka area. Last plane that we found in Istra is Spitfire Mk.IX, 6.4.45; Lt.Hogan;
 2 Sqn SAAF; north of Pula; POW

Radovan
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